Ep 12- Low Libido and Other Red Flags: The Journey to a Fulfilling Sexual Relationship | with Leslie Brown
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Welcome to Dating Greatly.
On today’s episode I chat with my friend, Leslie Brown.
Leslie is a trauma-informed embodiment coach that helps people authentically align with their true self, beyond familiar and cultural programming. Leslie works with individuals and couples to heal trauma, enhance relationships and communicate effectively in all areas of life.
I’ve had the privilege to get to know Leslie on a personal level and she’s one of the most vibrant, authentic and quirky people I’ve ever met.
In this episode we dive deep into the topic of healthy sexuality. We discuss the importance of sexuality in our own relationships, past and present, and reflect on how we each ignored some pretty massive red flags.
This conversation was a joy to record and I hope you love it as much as I do.
Enjoy today’s episode!
Yvonne [00:19:22]:
Thank you so much, Leslie, for joining me today. I'm super excited to have you on with me today.
Leslie Brown [00:19:36]:
Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Yvonne [00:19:39]:
So let's jump right in, shall we?
Leslie Brown [00:19:58]:
Let’s!
Yvonne [00:20:00]:
Okay. So tell us about the sexual awakening of Leslie Brown.
Leslie Brown [00:20:07]:
My partner is going to laugh so hard when he hears that. It's definitely his kind of pet phrase that he coined.
So I was in a marriage that was really was a hard time. And what's interesting to realize, in hindsight, is how loudly my body was talking to me about that relationship, and I didn't understand it until after the fact.
The whole Hindsight is 2020 thing was totally true. I realized afterwards my body had become unresponsive.
I had gotten to a point where I figured kids and age and marriage and life and busyness and all that stuff just meant that sex and sexuality wasn't the same level of importance in my life anymore.
And I realized that that just was not the case. And so my partner and I, we started off not long after I separated from my husband. We kind of reconnected. We had been friends for a lot of years, but also we had dated 15 years ago kind of thing, for a brief period of time. And he had also just ended a relationship at the same time. So we started going for hikes and talking and hanging out.
And then at one point, we just had the conversation and we're like, look, I'm totally emotionally unavailable. Me too. However, we're humans and we have needs, and so let's just agree that we can take care of those with one another.
And what ensued was this awakening. I think the most important part of that was definitely the trust and the safety that I feel with him. That has, in part because of the time we've known each other, but also just in part who he is and how he's always shown up. He is so incredibly solid. I know what to expect from him. And that just allowed this awakening, this unfolding, this opening. It allowed me to get into a place where I could really listen to my body and felt safe to express it. And that just kept on climbing.
It starts with realizing, oh, wait, I still have a drive. I still want to have sex to more and more of, wow, there's so much that I want to explore, that we wanted to explore together, that I was enjoying. And the biggest part of that was how that shifted everything for me.
Everything in my life started to change because it cultivated this authenticity, this alignment, this incredible empowerment.
I mean, as women, our uterus, our sex organs, they're like the pivotal piece of source, of energy, of life. And so when we are connected to that and there's energy flowing freely, we just become, or in my experience, I just became the strongest, most vibrant version of myself.
It was what facilitated so much of the healing from my relationship, and not just that one, from all the previous relationships, from going right back to the source.
And, yeah, it was really empowering and wasn't something that I anticipated or thought that I needed or wanted. And next thing you know, everything's different.
Yvonne [00:24:23]:
That's incredible. I was feeling that. Yeah. Whoo!
I want to go back to kind of where you started, because before we get into the juicy goodness of where you're at.
Now, you mentioned that your body was, did you say non responsive? If you feel comfortable to share, how did that show up, like, being non responsive in that way?
Leslie Brown [00:25:01]:
Definitely. So many signs. One big one was actually just my PH.
I noticed if I would have sex afterwards, things down there were just not right. And as a woman, you pay attention. We're so intimately aware of the smell, the textures, the feelings, the sensations, all of that.
If we're tuned into our bodies, then we know when something changes. So I definitely noticed things were changing, and it would be in response to having sex.
And then, libido, what's that? I can remember having the internal sensation of, like, UGH whenever my husband was interested. That's never been who I was. I didn't like that about myself in that moment. I didn't want to be the, oh, I have a headache, honey. That is not who I am. And so it really stood out for me.
And even just, like, non responsive physically, things didn't turn me on. I wouldn't have sex be like, oh, I'm well lubricated right now.
All of those little signs that our body gives us, and as could be said for the entire relationship to a degree, it's just more and more red flags that I just doo-doo-doo, walked right past.
Yvonne [00:26:46]:
I can so identify with that and hear myself in your story as well. And not just with one relationship. There's been a pattern with so many, and I would stay in these relationships way too long, but I wasn't tuned into my body or what I needed.
But one thing was my sex drive always went away relatively quickly actually, with most of my relationships. Same thing. My sex drive would be nonexistent.
And most recently, I actually thought, oh, man, I guess I'm getting old. And maybe like, my underactive thyroid. Like, oh, I was looking up, like, does the underactive thyroid cause loss of libido? And of course, you can find those articles. I was like, oh, it must be my thyroid, and how do I improve my nutrition, and should I increase my medication?
What's wrong with me? I was dry all the time, and sex without lube that was not even an option at all.
And it was the same thing, what you mentioned. I wasn't getting turned on either. And if my partner wanted sex, I was like, okay, what do you want me to do with that? I'm not turned on. And I didn't get turned on, and that was such an indication that the relationship was not the relationship for me.
Leslie Brown [00:28:42]:
Our bodies can't lie.
I think if I were to distill growth and being our best selves and living our best lives into, like, the simplest element, I think it would just be the listening piece.
Like telling ourselves the truth, being curious internally, what's my body trying to say to me? What am I really feeling? What am I pretending I don't know right now?
What I'm still learning how to do is to just take that moment and, okay, what's really true for me right now, grounding myself.
I literally put my hand on my heart and ask the question, and that deep inner wisdom is there if we quiet ourselves to listen to it.
Healthy relationships still experience an ebb and flow of drive. Many couples go through phases where they're like rabbits and then phases where not so much. And that really is a strong indicator of the emotional undercurrents.
Yvonne [00:31:30]:
I think. For me, I always put it on the back burner that it wasn't important or it wasn't that important.
So the first time I had sex with one of my exes, like, the first time that's supposed to be, like, the most exciting. It's not like I was a virgin or whatever, that I was nervous. This is like, let's go. And I wasn't feeling it. And I was like, this doesn't feel good. I don't even want to have it right now.
And it was actually the same with the first kiss. I was like, I don't even want to have that right now. And I pushed past these intimate, like these physically intimate things, because I thought, well, there was more important things, like the character traits and everything, but now I just realized, like you said, the body, it has to be in alignment.
Your body is telling you if this is the right person. And I've definitely seen evidence of that recently, of me just feeling magnetized and pulled to a person physically.
My body going to them, wanting to be close to them, like, that is evidence. And there's all sorts of other evidence, let me tell you. But our bodies are telling us if this is the right person or not.
Leslie Brown [00:33:23]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as you're talking about that, what comes up for me is this whole thing around our gut and our intuition.
And to me, it's related to that whole thing where, when we're really young, we receive so many messages that instruct us to go to the head space and out of the body wisdom, out of the intuition, my tummy hurts. Oh, it was probably just a logical it was probably just that thing you ate. You'll be fine. So, okay, ignore the physical sensation, go to my brain for logic and reasoning.
And so as you're talking about that, right, like, oh, but you're so funny, or you're such a solid person, or you make a great father, or whatever the logic and the reasoning we can apply is all great, but if our body is saying, energetically, it's just not there. We're taught that that's less important than the checking of the boxes. We receive that kind of messaging all the time, and I would argue the opposite all day long.
Yvonne [00:35:38]:
And so when you reconnected with your partner and you said you started going for hikes and whatever, do you remember what was your evidence that that energy was there? That you were, I suppose, awakening from being non-responsive. What were some of the first indicators?
Leslie Brown [00:36:07]:
I think part of the first thing was just like, the wanting to spend time. Thinking about him a lot, wanting to be in his presence, feeling seen and heard with him, which was refreshing at the time.
And then we'd go for a hike and we'd reminisce. So then slowly, the reminiscing would head more and more in the direction of things sexual. And we just started to talk more and more about it. You know when you're in someone's presence and your body just starts to respond, right. You're sitting there like, okay. What are we gonna do next? haha
And it's almost like there was that point I can remember where there's that bit of closer, closer, closer, and almost a momentary pull away as it's like, okay, clearly we can no longer ignore or pretend that this isn't happening and then to have the conversation.
And I think so feeling just like a light switch got turned on and I can remember in the first couple of times that we slept together, I remember thinking a lot, having fears come up reasonable and totally unreasonable.
And I just remember slowly but surely that went away and we got more and more into this place of just total presence and into this place of what I think is the magic is the secret sauce of sex, which is surrender.
It doesn't matter about roles or who is taking the more dominant or the more submissive role. Either way, if we can both just surrender to what our bodies are asking for and just allow that natural unfolding.
Allow this, the head, to turn off and just to go completely into that physical, energetic realm. That was not something I ever experienced in my marriage.
As I'm talking about it, I'm literally imagining that image of like a rose opening. It's just so cliche, but it is the energetics of it were just absolute opening right on every level.
And when you can surrender like that.
Yvonne [00:39:04]:
My God.
Leslie, something that's also so important about what you just said is once you recognize your person, that energy and your body's drawn and that sexual energy is there and you finally merge together, it's not going to start off as being this completely connected and present and surrendering, but those fears are going to come up big time.
Even though you are most likely enjoying yourself more than you ever have, and it's an amazing experience, it's still normal to have those voices and those fears come up and probably pretty intensely as well.
Leslie Brown [00:39:45]:
Absolutely. I mean, that's the job of our brain, to keep us safe, to survive. But our brain isn't wired for thriving. Our brain isn't there to ensure that we live our best lives. It's just there to ensure that we live, period.
It's up to us to carve those pathways, those neural pathways. It's up to us to build that clarity and that self honesty to move into the place of surrender, of being fully present.
Yvonne [00:40:25]:
That can be scary for so many women, especially because control keeps us safe.
So the idea of letting go and surrendering, literally, that exhale and opening and, okay, here we go. Letting yourself fall, that is so fucking scary.
If you've been hanging on for control, keeping yourself safe to get to that point where you're like, hey, I can trust, I can trust, I can trust.
Leslie Brown [00:40:56]:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is so terrifying. I would say it's the most terrifying because it's so hard. Not to mention just the protective stuff of, can I trust this person? Am I safe here?
But then there's all this silly stuff like, do my tits look okay? What if I fart? Did I wipe myself properly? How do I smell? So much that comes up for us.
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And again, it's self preservation. It's just protection. It's not necessarily real.
And of course, cautionary tale. We also really want to be sure that we're getting ourselves into safe situations. I mean, get to the surrender part once you've already scanned for safety and security. You can't have one without the other. And if you do, somehow it can be dangerous. So it's really important.
And if you can stop caring about those things, if you can move into that place where all you're aware of is the physical sensations and the smells and the taste and the heat and the passion, just surrender to that, then your body literally opens up.
Yvonne [00:43:20]:
In order to get to the point of fully surrendering and open yourself up to that passion, to those sensations, we need to feel safe in our environment so our mind can shut off.
And then again, it's that thing. What has my body told me about this person, about this situation? Again, trusting your body.
And with all of this opening up like a rose and surrendering, what's coming up for me is also the role that the man plays and actually the responsibility that the man also carries. It's not just us. It does require a certain type of masculine to be able to provide that space for us.
Leslie Brown [00:44:09]:
There's that very basic biological yin and yang sort of balancing of the energies.
It gets into such tricky territory, especially these days, with gender identity and lots of exploration around the edges. But there needs in whatever form it takes, I do feel like there needs to be that healthy balance of the yin and the Yang energy, of that protector energy and the surrender energy.
I'll speak just solely to my relationship, we talk about sex a lot and we always have. And I think part of what allowed that sort of safety and security and then surrender is having the conversations.
There's never really been a time where I've gone, well, I'll say to the bedroom. Not that that's the only place we go, haha. There's never been a time where we've engaged with one another without knowing pretty clearly the boundaries.
And in fact, this is part of the thing about women as well. For example, for a woman to move into those different kinds of orgasms, we're a slow burn. We're like a 40 minutes process to warm up and to get there. Not true for the male sex organs. They're more responsive, more quickly, ready to go. Exactly.
And so there's also that element where for us, that's part of our foreplay, it's like we will talk about what we want and what's going to happen. And sometimes right before, sometimes that morning, he goes off to work and we're texting about what's going to happen later on and what that does is that supports my process as a woman, taking more time. It means that when we finally meet, we're more likely to be in the same place, energetically. And of course, there's so much fun in building the anticipation.
But what it also does, especially now, I'm not necessarily a very analytical person, but for someone who is, it helps create that mental safety and security so that they can move down out of the headspace when we have the conversations.
And on the other side of that, we almost always debrief! Like, how was that? What was your favorite part? What didn't work for you? For us, it adds to the fun. It adds to the richness in our relationship. And on a really important fundamental level, it builds that trust and that safety that paved the way for the surrender.
And I think that not everybody's comfortable talking about sex. That's a real bummer because it's fun!
For so many couples, with other couples that I've worked with too, this kind of communication is a great test field and a practice field for other types of important communication. If you can ask directly for your partner to fuck you in the way you want to be fucked, then you're probably going to have an easier time asking them to speak to you the way you want to be spoken to, or to set whatever boundaries you need to set that have nothing to do with the bedroom or sex.
And because it's a very obviously rewarding arena for both parties, then it can be a little easier to start there.
Yvonne [00:51:11]:
Communicating what you want to happen, I think that's really challenging too, sometimes because maybe we don't really know.
Leslie Brown [00:52:16]:
I think it's extremely challenging. And I think just like when we were talking about that sort of I like to use the term programming because to me it feels the most accurate.
We come out of the womb a little sponge, and the world, the people around us is programming our beliefs and our values.
We get so many message about sex. We get messages about sex and sexuality, especially here in the Western world. And so much of it is so far from accurate.
You look at the porn industry, which fortunately, is slowly but surely changing in a meaningful way. But Hollywood and what we see on TV and movies, but we get all these messages about what we should like, what we should want.
I think even for me, part of that whole awakening process was questioning my sexuality was coming to a place of always knowing that I love women. I think we're beautiful creatures. We're softer and curvier and prettier.
And so getting to a place of recognizing how much programming did in fact take place. It's not to say it's some intentional evil. It's just a reality of our society and coming to a place of wanting to question that and explore that and recognizing, like, no, actually, my sexuality is extremely fluid. I love people. I am attracted to energy and to a person. It matters less their orientation or their genetics. It's more about just that intuition piece. How do I feel in your presence? And there have been men and women that evoke that same response for me.
Yvonne [00:54:52]:
Yeah. It's so interesting what we grow up with, what gets programmed, how we think we're supposed to act and how we think our relationship to our own sexuality is.
For me, that relationship to my own sexuality was nonexistent. In my opinion. I was there to, well, I don't know, not really enjoy sex. It was more of like, the man enjoy sex.
And then also what you said, like movies and things were raised. Watching these sex scenes where most of the time, the man has absolutely no sound. The man is absolutely quiet, silent, and the woman is there going (high pitched moan)
I watched this I think it was a documentary, and they actually went into this high pitched actually, that type of breathing, when you reenact it, it actually engages your fear and your anxiety mechanism because it's actually a panic breath.
We're being told we're supposed to do that. So especially our first sexual experiences as women, I know for myself, that's what I did, oh, I'm supposed to sound like this, so I'll start doing that. But really it's then telling me this is not enjoyable. I'm actually moving myself into this place of fear just by reenacting this thing that I thought I was supposed to do when in reality, when you're experiencing pleasure, it's like a deep, low moan kind of thing. It's like a deep exhale.
And then also the shame around. Like when I discovered my own sexuality or had my first sexual experiences, it was with a woman. That was my first introduction to sex and experiencing that. And for me at the time, it was because women felt safe to me, men did not feel safe to me.
And this woman for me, that's where I got my first experience. And there was so much shame around that. And it took me years to be okay with that. I got to have this experience which is so valuable. I know that I do prefer men. And at the same time, it was exactly like the experience that I needed to introduce me to sex.
Leslie Brown [00:58:06]:
I wonder and this is going to be really controversial! Say it! I wonder how many women who identify as lesbians had some horrible, traumatic past sexually of perhaps rape, for example, at a young age. That's what comes up for me when I hear you say that women were safe. That makes so much sense to me.
And by no means am I suggesting that that's why people go one way or another. But I wouldn't be surprised if there were cases where that was what had happened.
Yvonne [00:59:23]:
Or trauma passed down from the mother figures or the women that men were not safe or not trustworthy or father figures, brothers, cousins that were not safe.
Leslie Brown [00:59:37]:
Exactly. And same could go for a man who was raised by a horrible mom, someone who used shame or who was abusive in any way.
We're plastic. We can be changed and molded based on the experiences that we have.
And so again, that's where this value of that curiosity and being willing to explore my truth and then to question what I believe is true, that was huge for me.
I mean, my partner and I got to this point where I was like, wow, I'm questioning everything. Like how relationships are supposed to look, how I want a relationship to look.
And I'm now in this place because of going through that questioning phase. I'm in a place where I feel so open to possibility, where I feel so clear about what's important to me and really aware of just how untrue some of my truths can be.
And that's a really rich place to live, in my experience.
Yvonne [01:01:44]:
And that's also that comes with a risk because when we question and when we think about taking a different route or choosing a more, maybe alternative way of living at the same time, it's like the risk of exclusion, the risk of not going with the crowd, of going with the norm.
And no one wants to be separate from the crowd. Even if we say something like, oh, I'm my own I'm the black sheep, or I'm my own person, like, no, we want to be part of the crowd.
So when we choose something new or when we go outside of the norm, that is scary because we don't want to be separate. We don't want to be alone.
Leslie Brown [01:02:41]:
There's a couple of things that come up for me there because you're absolutely right. Belonging is one of our foundational needs as humans.
This is another piece of programming that I don't love. It's this idea of, like, we all like to fit in. No, we are literally pack animals. We are genetically programmed to be group oriented because there is safety in numbers.
Yvonne:
So you're saying within society or within this large pack, find your own pack and be able to separate from the big pack, but with your smaller pack kind of thing? I love that.
Leslie Brown [01:05:27]:
I think that's the trick. When we can get in touch with that authentic place and be willing to take that step or to jump off the ledge, as it were, oftentimes, if we can take that step, that scary step, then we will find those people.
Your vibe attracts your tribe. That whole idea that whatever I'm putting out into the world, I will receive more of. And so if I'm willing to put it out into the world, then I'm likely to receive something in return.
Yvonne [01:06:06]:
So where are you at now? What have you received in return? Where is your awakening at today?
Leslie Brown [01:06:14]:
Well, it's funny, I was thinking about that a little bit this morning, just knowing that we were going to be talking. And part of it for me is this new… so my partner and I have moved in together after years of all of this kind of exploration.
Right now, honestly, it's trying to figure out how to have a healthy sex life with kids. My kids are seven and nine, so they're at an age where they actually have some degree of understanding, but not a lot. And this is the debate, right, is how do you talk to them?
You look at older cultures. The Vikings are indigenous peoples. They're living in communal spaces, and sex was just part of that. And kids were around. Kids learned by watching, essentially. And we're not talking like, it's not appropriate for your children to be sitting around with popcorn while you're making love with your partner. That's not appropriate. But if it's hidden and secretive and a no-go zone for conversation, then we're building this veil of shame.
I'm in a space right now of trying to explore that element of how do I best parent my kids around sex and how do I best facilitate my own sex life in this new dynamic?
And I am very clear on how so many of my most unhealthy patterns stemmed from the patterns in my home growing up. And so I also want my kids to grow up feeling like they understand that there's pleasure to be had so that they're not underestimating what's possible and selling themselves short in their relationships.
I want my kids to grow up and have healthy relationships and that includes a healthy sexuality. That's definitely the thing that I'm fumbling around with right now, for sure.
Yvonne [01:09:57]:
I don't envy you with that at all. That must be just such a challenging thing. Because you want to stay in this liberated, awakened place and also have it work for your kids and have it be like an open environment where things are not hidden or made bad. But that's a tricky, tricky place to be.
Leslie Brown [01:10:25]:
Tricky balance, for sure.
Yvonne [01:11:23]:
Well, this has just been so great.
Leslie Brown [01:11:45]:
Yes. Thank you so much.
Yvonne [01:11:48]:
Okay, so before we wrap up, I just want to ask you what's your off topic, but also on topic, what's your favorite song to dance to right now?
Leslie Brown [01:12:02]:
You know what, I just found it randomly. It's got this kind of primal aspect. It's got a really good rhythm. And that I just love, because I love a good rhythm. I can't understand the words, so I can make them mean whatever I want. But I love that kind of primal element where I can move in a way that feels… ancient, is the word that comes up.
Yvonne [01:13:26]:
I love that. Yes. Send it to me, and I will add it to the Dating Greatly playlist.
Leslie Brown [01:13:32]:
Excellent.
Yvonne [01:13:32]:
It's looking pretty good so far. Awesome.
Leslie, where can listeners find out more about you?
Leslie Brown [01:13:42]:
That's a really great question. They can't, unless they just reach out to me, haha!
So I will absolutely have you put my contact information up with the post, because I'm always happy for people to reach out.
Yvonne [01:14:29]:
And is there anything else that we haven't yet talked about that is on your mind, that you are wanting to say?
Leslie Brown [01:14:41]:
I think for me, the real core of everything, I mean, communication is my jam, and I think communication people always assume that means between two people. And yeah, I mean, that's the work that I love doing and the work that is even more impactful, that I love even more, is teaching people how to communicate with themselves.
To really learn how to listen into that heart space and that inner wisdom that we all have that's just kind of got some layers of stuff on it. Give it a little blow off a little squeky noise
Yvonne [01:15:31]:
Yeah. I love that. Yes. That's so important.
Well, thank you so much, Leslie, for chatting with me today. I hope we do many more of these. I'm sure we will. But thank you so much for being here.
Leslie Brown [01:15:43]:
Yeah, thanks for having me. My pleasure.
Yvonne [01:15:48]:
Leslie, that was so good!
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